Dive-In-Justice launched Season 3 on May 19th, 2023! Dip into the season promo and join Dr. Shadiin Garcia and Delma Jackson’s bi-weekly pod as they examine the role of money, resources, and access in relationship to Justice. How do we seek one without forsaking the other? We don’t know either, but we’re gonna spend Season 3 talking thru it together.
Come join for the conversation. It’ll be interesting, honest, funny, and heartbreaking all at once and we are HERE for it!
Center for Whole Communities and Shoreline Consulting is proud to present Seasons 1 through 3 of Dive-In-Justice: the podcast that explores “building ideal communities with our less than ideal selves.”
Who’s invited? Shadiin says, “Delma and I enter the world in Black and Brown bodies, and we want to center that perspective. And if you’re white, we want you to be present too. We want you to listen, we want you to bear witness.” That’s an invitation to be present in solidarity, rather than show up just to extract meaning.
Here’s a guide to present and past episodes:
S3 E13: Season 3 Finale (FINALLY) arrived January 29, 2024.
After a hiatus, Delma and Shadiin return to close out the past season and blame each other for this episode taking so long, in classic DIJ fashion.
Other topics include: the strangeness of work culture in PWIs (predominantly white institutions); the heaviness of what is ongoing in Gaza, and our hosts’ reflections about how and when to cover it, as well as the privilege of being able to look away; closure on season 3 and an introduction to DIJ season 4 in April.
Thanks SO MUCH for taking this journey with us. Look for us to return with DIJ SEASON 4: LOVE, in late April 2024!
S3 E12: An Empty Swing, by Samara Gaev appeared December 6. 2023.
We have something special to share with you this week. This is the audio version of an essay, written by one of our collective members at the Center for Whole Communities, Samara Gaev. We simply invite you to close your eyes and take this in when you have the time, and listen as Samara gives voice to the tender reality of what it’s like to bring young ones into this world in a time of conflict, trauma, and chaos. You can also find the written version here. And if you would like to contribute to CWC’s winter fundraising campaign, and support our collective transition, you can donate here.
The accompanying music for this piece is Compassion, by Cellomano.
S3 E11: Freedom, Money, Surviving, and Recovering w Kellie Richardson dropped on October 27, 2023.
This week, Shadiin opens up by saying the quiet part out loud and admits she loves to hear Delma stumble over pronunciations.
Delma checks in about what it means to respond to the world around us based on perceived racial identity and gender and how we potentially replicate the very systems we seek to change. Shadiin reflects on the pride she feels in watching her children become “good humans” in this world. She also discusses the way recent events and triggered her anger and how she’s managing (or not) to move with it.
After the break, our fearless hosts welcome back poet, activist, educator, and facilitator Kellie Richardson who’s work center’s Black humanity as sacred, divine, and worthy. Kellie joins us to talk about surviving cancer, making a living, living life, and what it means to tell her story in predominantly white institutions and spaces in everything from health care, to art.
S3 E10: Keeping our Values and the Lights On w Ginny McGinn first appeared on 6 October 2023
Our hosts open up how much Shadiin REALLY appreciates Delma’s presence in her life. From there, they discuss the nature of contemporary politics and the role of Trump in changing the political landscape so much that you start to miss Reagan and Bush. Shadiin talks about the way our various “hats” we wear impact how we choose to show up in various places. Are we being our authentic selves? CAN we be our authentic selves and still hold down a job?
DIJ then welcomes our guest, Ginny McGinn, the long-time director of Center for Whole Communities. Ginny discusses what it means to lead an agency through justice work while holding her own integrity and navigating sexism and white identity. She discuss the role of allyship in the face of these intersectional realities. She discusses the risks inherent in justice work and how she determines when to push while trying to meet people where they are.
S3 Episode 9: For The Love of Money w Dr. Carolyn Finney went live 22 September 2023.
With the encouragement of both Shadiin and Dr. Finney, Delma briefly considers taking up late night DJ-ing. Shadiin and Delma check in about the passing of Delma’s colleague and classmate, Dr. Charles Banks and the disproportionate health outcomes of BIPOC populations. Shadiin discusses her son’s and their future plans. She also raises what it means to receive feedback from listeners about her “single” status and what it means practice relationships beyond monogamy and her recent dating fun in her dating life.
After the break our hosts welcome the “notorious” Dr. Carolyn Finney who discusses her journey through higher education and what it means to navigate the struggle of meeting her own expectations around social justice work and “the invisible list of rules” that come with being on “the left.” She discusses how making money can conflict with her desire to be true to herself when “the rules” don’t serve her. She powerfully discusses the task of knowing and meeting her own expectations in the face of people and institutions who expect something less than authenticity.
S3 Episode 8, DIJ S3 E8: Authenticity in Capitalism w Taj James – Paradox, Change and Complexity arrived fully formed on 8 September, 2023.
Our hosts open the episode with an introspective and humorous conversation about the current moment — taking in a political scene that is as gross and painful as it is wildly ironic and entertaining. Shadiin and Delma also talk about the media, past and present, that provides valuable and paradoxical forms of nurture and refuge.Then our hosts share brief life updates, talk about the power and costs of loving accountability, and return to the season themes of capitalism, money, and what makes work authentic alongside new guest, Taj James.
A father, poet, strategist, designer, philanthropic and capital advisor, Taj joins us to discuss the practice of self-love, transformation and transition, as well as the paradoxes that accompany them. The urgency to transform violent systems vs. the urgent need to heal from the violence perpetuated by those very same systems… The delicate dance of building sovereignty from oppressive structures while also relying on them to build stability (and then what happens when those systems fall apart)… The ways in which emancipatory ideas are linguistically sealed off from the people who might need them the most… And wanting desperately to see core elements in the world change while recognizing the comfort one gains from holding onto its problematic parts. Taj pushes us to see past the limits of colonial binary thinking and to act in ways that honor our ancestors who came before along as well as our descendants yet to be.
Oh, also, one more thing. Read some Rumi.
Bio: Taj is a father, poet, strategist, designer, philanthropic and capital advisor. Taj thrives on connecting community stewards and capital stewards to bring financial value into alignment with sacred values in ways that build community wealth. Taj is a Principal with Full Spectrum Capital Partners, as well as Co-founder and a Senior Advisor at Movement Strategy Center.
S3 Episode 7, Charging People to Breathe appeared 28th August 2023. Our hosts check in about the start of the school year so Delma can complain about having to start getting up earlier and getting organized again. They take a moment to reminisce about his Aunt Emma as she transitions into “the pantheon of ancestors.” Shadiin reflects on what it means to be tough, the trauma we navigate to get there, and what our kids gain and lose in the process of protecting them from it.
Our fearless hosts then welcome our first guest of the season: Jonah Canner! A long time friend, colleague, teacher, and practitioner, Jonah joins us to discuss what it means to do this work while loving ourselves, the work, and each other. He discusses how he makes decisions about when to hold his position and when to fold and walk away (if not be escorted out).
Jonah Canner is an ambassador for the world we have not yet built. He believes in people, community, and the obligation we have to make positive change in the world around us. Jonah’s primary areas of focus include racial equity, restorative justice, experiential education, and working through conflict. Jonah has been on the founding team of a public high school, a summer camp, a national education organization and an international change initiative. He has worked as a classroom teacher, a summer camp director, and a consultant offering mentoring, training, and support for individuals and organizations. “The depth that it requires to actually, with integrity, bring restorative justice into a school setting is a really high bar, and there’s a really low taste for it in the structures, he shares” Jonah has a Masters in Education from the New School University in New York. In his free time Jonah is writing a collection of essays that explore questions of grief, identity, ancestry, and place.
If we really believe that no one is disposable, then our priority has to be getting everybody’s capacity up and supporting everybody’s capacity to come up.
– Jonah Canner
S3 Episode 6: The Season in Review posted August 18th, 2023
Shadiin and Delma open up discussing the cultural relevance of the “Rock at the Dock,” the “Fadesgivin’ Festivities, ” otherwise known as the August 5th, 2023 “Montgomery Mollywhop,” wherein a group of white Alabamans f***ed around and were found out.
They discuss how the role of blood quantum and other western notions of belonging continue to haunt the Pueblo nation Shadiin belongs to, and what it means to dive into the work of calling in folks who look just like you but hold VERY different politics.
Finally, as our hosts hit the halfway point of the season, they pause to take note of what the season has been and what we hope it’ll be moving forward. 🎧 Listen here ➡️
S3 Episode 5: That’s Mighty White of You appeared Friday, July 14th, 2023
In Episode 5 we hold space for ourselves in the humanity of being vulnerable and the unapologetic, sovereign right to be angry. If you think you’re ready for all that, dive into the depths with us and listen. 🎧 Listen here ➡️
S3 Episode 4: The Privilege of Integrity? went up June 30th.
This week, we discover why Delma never became a serious runner and why Shadiin is cowboy adjacent and an enemy of our bovine brothers and sisters. Meanwhile, your hosts try to figure out why it feels like white people are often more emotive regarding tragedies befalling our four-legged family than they are when it happens to their fellow BIPOC siblings.
After Delma’s blood pressure comes back down, our hosts discuss the ways we choose to compromise ourselves even as we’re trying to change the world for the better. How does our desire for comfort and security impact our willingness to speak truth to power? How do we decide when to risk our finances to fight the good fight? 🎧 Listen here ➡️
S3 Episode 3: Soft Hard Lines: The evolution of judging ourselves and others in social justice work dropped Friday, June 15th, 2023.
Our third episode of Dive-In-Justice season 3 is all about the evolution of judging ourselves and others in social justice work. Join us as we navigate paths of healing, discuss experiences of racism and paternalism, and shed light on the challenges of empathy. 🎧 Listen here ➡️
S3, Episode 2: Contemporary Toms arrived June 2, 2023.
In S3, Episode 2, Shadiin and Delma briefly consider renaming the podcast. Our hosts take time to check in with one another on the nuances and difficulties of getting facilitating groups while trying to make it look easy and what it means to “teach” facilitation to a new generation of people while being and feeling exhausted.
After the break, our hosts discuss the existence, proliferation, external appearance, and internal voice of the Contemporary Tom: those of us who put the comfort of people in power over the needs of those most vulnerable. Modern day uncle toms within and without are making justice difficult to embody for us all. What is a sellout? WHO is a sellout? Who should get to decide? What does it even mean…? We don’t know either, but we’re gonna discuss just the same.
S3, Episode 1 Love You, Pay Me, landed May 19, 2023.
After a lengthy hiatus, Shadiin and Delma are back with another season of DIJ and the mutual respect is as present as ever…. In S3, Episode 1, once Shadiin learns to loosen up a bit… we discuss the theme of justice and money that will inform the rest of Season 3. We talk about what it means to care about both justice AND paying our bills; our need for love and our need for liquidity. We talk about how often we feel called to move the world in the right direction, while shrinking our voice in order to remain “digestable” and employed. Sometimes we’re silent when we should be loud. Sometimes people are counting on us while we’re counting our money.
Why? Because we’re human, fallible, greedy, and we want to be comfortable. We live in a broader context that says, be a capitalist, or live off the grid. Your hosts have chosen. So the question remains: how do we live with ourselves? 🎧 Listen here ➡️
Want to catch up before you dig into Season 3?
All episodes of Season 1 and Season 2 are now streaming. We invite you to listen! If you love the idea of building intentional community, if you love history and pop-culture, if you want to dream into a society where intersectionality is baked into the culture, the Dive-In-Justice POD is for YOU. You can watch the introduction here.
In Seasons 1 & 2, co-hosts Delma Jackson, III and Dr. Shadiin Garcia welcome a wide range of activists, scholars, healers, philosophers, and organizers to explore the ways we want to be in community, and the various -roadblocks that have historically impeded our progress.
From systemic injustice to internalized oppression, apathy, and trauma, Shadiin, Delma and guests pull back the layers of struggle within social progress, and dream together, even as we remind one another that our personal tragedies, triumphs, and healing will inform our ability to create a better world.
Wondering where to start listening? Scroll down for descriptions of past episodes.
In the Season 2 finale, our hosts open with a whole season’s worth of bitter love and warm hostility.
They discuss balancing workloads, family, and what it means to live in head vs the heart. Shadiin discusses comfort zones and how we might benefit from finding the right balance between feeling stretched, growing, and over-extending.
Shadiin and Delma zoom out and discuss some of the biggest themes running throughout Season 2 and the show in general with a special focus on land acknowledgements and how we might keep them relevant and focused on raising awareness, as opposed to becoming another vehicle for performance. Our hosts also discuss how we hold the the work:
Finally, our hosts discuss their vision for Season 3 and take a moment to recognize all those who’ve supported us to this point.
DIJ S2 EP 11: Judicious Patriotism, Emptying for Empathy, and Finding our Feelings w Aayaan
This week on DIJ, S2, Episode 11, Shadiin laughs at Delma’s natural-born face. They discuss how meaningful it is to have close connections with their respective children. Our hosts discuss the promises and pitfalls of American life and how it impacts their views on patriotism vs packing it up, while in Black and Brown bodies-as well as what we saw in our fathers and grandfathers who served.
DIJ then welcomes, Aayaan. Aayaan, is a transformational coach and founder of Unearth Freedom, LLC and a consultant at Metropolitan Group. As a healing justice facilitator and cultural change guide, Aayaan helps systematically disadvantaged and purpose driven leaders experience freedom, feel powerful, and act with purpose.
They discuss how often we show up with an overwhelming need to “prove” ourselves, and how we can begin to “remove all the layers” that prevent us from healing. They discuss how Aayaan awakened to their work and how their work with Unearth Freedom seeks to help others recover from feelings of shame and loss that prevent us from engaging in the type of emotional consciousness that our world needs so desperately today.
Shadiin and Delma discuss the horrors of Ukraine, what it brings up for them-including how this moment mirrors so many others. From the systemic assault of women to the systemic racial bias in it’s coverage, our hosts grapple with what it means to be a human consuming information that deeply impacts our sense of safety, well-being, and our sense of responsibility to this global community we call home.
Our hosts then welcome Chief Curator of The Emergence Network, Dr. Bayo Akomolafe.
A speaker, author, fugitive neo-materialist, com-post-activist, public intellectual and Yoruba poet-Dr. Akomolafe offers a series of fundamental questions about the nature of justice, race, privilege, failure, and experimentation–For instance: Do we strengthen the role of oppression by seeking recognition from the very systems we seek to create? Is justice enough? What do we lose when we live in our privilege?
Shadiin and Delma open S2 Episode 9 with warmth, love, and light. Or…not.
They move into a conversation about the ways their own inside jokes have potentially caused harm to some of our listeners–which leads to a broader analysis of how we might come to conclusions about what’s acceptable and what’s not–and to what extent we’re even equipped to have those conversations with one another.
We discuss the isolation and shaming that can come from our triggers encountering our inability to skillfully hold these conversations.
DIJ welcomes Scott Nine, Assistant Superintendent for the Oregon Department of Education’s Office of Education Innovation and Improvement.
Scott discusses his journey through his childhood in a faith community, grappling with the politics of whiteness within his own family, and wrestling with working to constantly expand his world view.
Scott draws on these narratives as he moves into his current role and his vulnerability when working on justice issues as a white, cisgender male, and how his commitment to equity rests in a willingness to keep doing “the work” even as you know you’re going to get things wrong along the way.
After confessing profound pettiness, Scott joins Shadiin and Delma in analyzing the role of ism’s articulated by celebrities and how our feelings about their words inform us.
Delma & Shadiin open the episode reflecting on Delma’s obvious high quality as reflected by the quality of his guests, and move from there straight into their usual respectful dialogue.
DiveInJustice S2 Ep 8 guest is Adrian Massey, a Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Army who served for over 18 years and was awarded the Bronze Star Medal for excellence in combat. Adrian is a lifelong friend of Delma’s.
Adrian takes us on a journey through his challenges and triumphs. He reflects on freedom, friendship, and faith and the power of poetry to “break up” otherwise barren soil. Adrian is also a published author of a collection of poetry, a book entitled “A Soldier’s Poetic Response: A Slice of His Life.” Learn more here.
Unless we’re moving in somewhat in the same direction, at a fundamental level, America’s never going to achieve what we set out to achieve.
– Lt. Col. Adrian Massey in S2 Ep8
in Season 2 Episode 7, we discover just how well-versed Delma is in the nuances of Indigenous nations.
Shadiin ponders the toll of white supremacy on BIPOC health over the long haul. ZThey both discuss the importance of rest in the face of ongoing social turmoil, oppression, and upheaval.
The DIJ hosts welcome Lori Tapahonso (Diné/Acoma Pueblo). Lori is a public relations specialist, a teacher, a consultant, a storyteller, a jeweler, and an actor.
Lori discusses her role as the Native American Program Coordinator at Lane Community College where she manages the development and implementation of programming specifically geared towards Native students at Lane.
Lori describes her strong tribal college background having worked at Haskell, SIPI (Southwestern Indian Polytechnic Institute) and six campuses of Diné College. The three also discuss the role of media representation and what it means to see yourself represented on screen for better and for worse.
Shadiin and Delma open by discussing whiteness, from Jan 6, to friendships, to dating, work life and beyond. They discuss how aging impacts our ability to show up and hold difficult spaces-even when they’re filled by people who look just like us.
Our fearless hosts reflect on the enraging nature of trying to figure out the nuances of community while trying to live in white supremacy.
DIJ welcomes to the show Jomo Kheru (Brian Carey Sims): founder and executive director at Jomoworks, Jomo Kheru (Brian Carey Sims) is a media psychologist and social entrepreneur invested in African liberation with over 15 years of faculty and administrative experience in university teaching and learning, faculty governance, and social and instructional media.
He is founder and executive director at Jomoworks, an education management consulting firm specializing in University / K-12 partnership development.
Jomoworks combines the knowledge and expertise of a research institute with the skills of an education management consulting firm to serve as a trusted partner to school districts and universities worldwide.
He is also a tenured Associate Professor in the Department of Psychology at Florida A&M University where his research focuses on the implications of media for individuals, families, and communities of African descent.
We discuss everything from Hip Hop to African Liberation, Metaphysics, and the broadness of the human experience binding us all together.
In Ep 5, Delma and Shadiin take care through the latest wave of COVID as they dive deep into an opening debate on cultural appropriation, especially around who is capable of appropriating based on where whiteness is present and how systems of power really work.
They are joined by guest Vernice Miller-Travis, Environmental Justice leader, founder of WE ACT for Environmental Justice and Executive Vice President alongside Shadiin at Metropolitan Group.
Vernice is one of the nation’s most respected thought leaders on environmental justice and the interplay of civil rights and environmental policy to build a social movement that is rooted at the intersection of race, environment, economics, social justice and public health. She was a contributing author to the landmark report “Toxic Waste and Race in the United States” and was awarded the Robert Bullard Environmental Justice Award by the Sierra Club.
On Ep 4, Delma and Shadiin discuss the ways in which we can sometimes harbor ill-will toward people in our lives and what constitutes a reasonable expectation for dealing with it.
Guests Stevi Atkins and Teresa Springer of Wellness Services INC, an AIDS service organization based out of Flint, MI, discuss the history and future of HIV work, the culture they’ve worked to cultivate for clients and staff, and how their personal histories have informed their life’s work.
Stevi has worked in the field of HIV for over 20 years as an HIV STI educator, an outreach worker, an HIV tester, medical case manager, HIV prevention manager before eventually coming on as CEO of Wellness Services, Inc. in 2010.
Teresa is Director of Programs is a writer of grants, the manager of programs, the shaker of systems, reject of racist, homophobic, transphobic regimes, denouncer of discrimination and professional side-eyer of shady people and lover of equitable solutions.
On Ep 3, Shadiin takes a break from giving Delma a hard time, because Kavitha Rao and Mohamed Chakaki are on from CWC to talk about some deep topics.
The guests and hosts speak to the intersection of anger and gender, how it isn’t radical to center love and story, and how embodied practice and partnership are part of moving through everything we feel.
In Season 2. Ep. 2, DIJ hosts dive deep with guest, Keith Catone, who has a deep background in education and organizing. Keith is Executive Director of Center for Youth & Community Leadership in Education (CYCLE).
and speaks about these places we call schools – what do they do? How do we listen to the young people who refuse to play along, the ones we call troublemakers? How can we tap into our ancestral wisdom so that schools can be places where everybody can show up and thrive, not just survive.
In Season 2, Shadiin, Delma, and our brilliant guests continue to normalize healing our wounds and grappling with our imperfections.
While many of us treasure the idea of community, we can often make mistakes along the way and witness some of the core tenets of white supremacy show up as we attempt to course correct—often resulting in splintering and further isolation.
We might want to stamp out norms like: Perfectionism, Paternalism, Either-or-thinking, and Power hoarding…and we are also products of those norms and are just as quick to succumb to them as anyone else. We’ll be asking each other, what can we do differently so that we can continue to heal while staying in community together.
Season 2 of Dive-In-Justice will welcome brilliant activists and thinkers from all over the planet, and feature voices from Center for Whole Communities, as well as the METGroup, and many more. We launched it November 5th, 2021.
In our Season 2 Opener: Holding Hypocrisy, Hope & Healing, Shadiin and Delma open season 2 with loving yet (knowing them) begrudging greetings after the long hiatus following Season 1. They reflect on national conversations around critical race theory and what it means to be a facilitator in spaces where the concept of racial justice is still controversial.
Our hosts also discuss what the pod was in Season 1, what they hope it can become in Season 2, and how they hope to grow with their guests in the process.
Finally, they grapple with the nuances of self and community, and invite a rigorous examination of what it means to be self-aware while holding space.
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Not caught up on Season 1? Our TWELFTH episode awaits: our first Season Finale.
Delma and Shadiin provide a retrospective look at all we learned together over the past months from our amazing guests.
When we’re committed to the idea of ourselves as being a particular thing, a particular identity and all that comes with that identity — all of the political, moral, emotional, and behavioral obligations that we take on in order to gain access, maintain security, and claim by a particular political realm, political home, political family, identity family — we do ourselves a disservice in that we miss the bigger belonging”
– Khalif Williams, S1 Ep. 12 guest
The Season 1 finale provides highlights, reflections, and important points from past episodes – what really stuck out to us from our guests, what might have changed us, or what elements of their wisdom we might be taking with us well into the future.
We want to thank everyone who has joined us for Season One, and especially thank those who’ve donated to the show through Patreon!
Catch up on our ELEVENTH episode: Laureate Limericks, Holding Healing, and Guarding our Gardens w/ Kellie Richardson
Delma and Shadiin dive into the heatwaves people are experiencing caused by climate change, returning to being social, and the happiness of a true 40-hour work week, which is all too uncommon in the public service and nonprofit realms. Kellie Richardson joins as a guest this week, a writer and artist educator born and raised in Tacoma Washington.
Her work explores the intersection of race, class and gender with a specific emphasis on themes of love, loss and longing. As the 2017 to 2019 Tacoma Poet Laureate, Kellie has worked to ensure literary arts are both accessible to and representative of the diversity of that community. Kellie has authored two collections of poetry, “What Us Is” and “The Art of Naming My Pain,” published by Blue Cactus Press. Find her at brownbetty.org and her works at bluecactuspress.com.
Richardson explores the healing power of disruption, reclamation, and joy, and the criticality of rage, grief, and chaos. She centers the beauty and power of everyday folk, and puts some funk into the dread we call survival.
Don’t miss our TENTH episode: Allyship & Apologetics, Whiteness & Whitewashing, Connection & Community w Jeff Bean.
Delma and Shadiin dive into what it feels like to be put in the position of policing people claiming to be Native American and talk with lifelong educator and activist, Jeff Bean.
“Jeff Bean is a hometown hero of mine who is currently working with future teachers… I’ve always found Jeff to be full of love, courage, lots of wisdom.” says Delma.
At 16 years old. I had a social studies teacher give me The Autobiography of Malcolm X. And as a white kid in Sturgis, Michigan, which was an all white rural community, that was the first time I understood that there was a world outside of my little town.”
– Jeff Bean, Ep 10 guest
Jeff also happens to be the first White person interviewed on the show and is a retired teacher who spent 9 years at Detroit Catholic Central and 25 years at Flint Community Schools. The hosts and guest go deep into White nationalism and supremacy, and the national racial reckoning currently playing out.
Dive-In-Justice premiered February 26, 2021, followed by two 10-episode seasons, dropping on a bi-weekly basis. Now entering its third season, DIJ is a co-production of the Center for Whole Communities and Shoreline Consulting. For companion writing on these themes, check out the CWC blog.
Our gratitude to Jenni Kotting for the Dive-In-Justice graphic design and outreach strategy, and to Doug Fearnside for audio engineering and podcast editing.
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Art by Alixa Garcia
